tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post3785477591577357880..comments2024-03-09T05:53:59.542-05:00Comments on Oz and Ends: Robin Isn’t Evil, But Batman…?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-19899253147744159982010-05-08T10:58:31.267-05:002010-05-08T10:58:31.267-05:00I remember the vampire storyline, in which Dick’s ...I remember the <a href="http://www.comics.org/issue/36479/cover/4/" rel="nofollow">vampire storyline</a>, in which Dick’s wish to help Dala (mixed with the horniness of youth) makes him vulnerable—an example of being so not-evil that he briefly becomes evil. Gerry Conway was writing a lot of Batman and Robin at this point, and he had a traditional view of Dick Grayson’s challenge as learning how to avoid mistakes.<br /><br />Of course, there was nothing more shocking in that period than the sight of Robin attacking Bruce Wayne in the shower in <a href="http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/44597.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Batman</i>, #356</a>. Even though there turns out to be simple explanation for that moment (simple in comic-book terms), it wouldn’t have had the power it did if we readers weren’t convinced that Robin would be the last guy to do that.<br /><br />One of the relatively few Silver Age comic-book covers that suggested Robin had gone bad was <a href="http://www.comicvine.com/detective-comics-the-midnight-raid-of-the-robin-gang/37-112551/" rel="nofollow"><i>Detective</i>, #342</a>. <br /><br />That story involved dark-haired white teen boys dressed up in Robin costumes to commit crimes. It seems significant that DC felt the need to reassure readers that this was indeed a “startling cover” and that only one of the young men on it was the “real Robin.”J. L. Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15405157000473731801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-21122968576287151152010-05-08T07:43:39.074-05:002010-05-08T07:43:39.074-05:00About the only time I DO recall Robin being evil p...About the only time I DO recall Robin being evil per se was when he was turned into a hungry vampire by his then girlfrined Dala, and comes THIS close to chowing down on Vicki Vale. Batman, similarly infected, goes all alpha-Bat on him so he's not a threat for long, but it's closest I can think of offhand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-72884055346258417242010-05-05T19:47:20.304-05:002010-05-05T19:47:20.304-05:00Yes, I recall that moment. Winick’s script built u...Yes, I recall that moment. Winick’s script built up to “Who is Jericho hiding inside?” And I think the fact that it was Nightwing was supposed to be a big reveal because Dick’s the last person we want/expect to have villainy inside him. <br /><br />Of course, Joe Wilson (or even Joey Slade, as that series oddly called him) has known since he first came on the scene in <i>New Teen Titans</i> that you never leave Nightwing for last.J. L. Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15405157000473731801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-46751885652945285342010-05-05T19:16:20.836-05:002010-05-05T19:16:20.836-05:00Dick was under Jericho's influence in a Titans...Dick was under Jericho's influence in a Titans last year or so. Not evil, but he was the one controlled without realizing it.<br /><br />Dick himself seems to be harder to make evil than just Robin. (Obviously we currently have a Robin well acquainted with evil.) I remember that story where Bruce pretends to give Tim a warning from the future about one of their allies going bad. Tim imagines how they all could go bad. The one for Dick didn't ring very true to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-59901790158668374282010-05-05T16:32:50.366-05:002010-05-05T16:32:50.366-05:00Deathwing invited himself to Dick and Kory’s weddi...Deathwing invited himself to Dick and Kory’s wedding, as I recall. But he and Dick didn’t get much face-to-face time to debate, like Tim and possible-future-Tim. <br /><br />It may be more accurate to say that possible-future-Dick haunted readers rather than Dick himself. At first, what seemed to be a familiar, heroic Dick was stuck in an awful future. Then that Dick turned awful as well, and got a “shocking” cover out of it. The two characters also seemed to move in parallel, even to having bad sex with Mirage. But then nothing in the period of <i>Zero Hour</i> and Marv Wolfman’s writer’s block is really coherent.J. L. Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15405157000473731801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-3085367162317907222010-05-05T15:48:29.742-05:002010-05-05T15:48:29.742-05:00Tim Drake and his evil Batman self would be good, ...Tim Drake and his evil Batman self would be good, but as far as I recall, Nightwing and Future-Nightwing/Deathwing/never-was-Dick never met. Dick-Nightwing and the somewhat random Jason-Nightwing of the just post OYL might make an interesting contrast.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-77511788267169769742010-05-04T20:35:55.902-05:002010-05-04T20:35:55.902-05:00I just remember TV’s Dick Grayson dressing up in l...I just remember TV’s Dick Grayson dressing up in leather to look like a juvenile delinquent and then not being able to smoke a cigarette. <br /><br />With Batman’s sanity, my only objection to the “brooding psychopath” or <a href="http://ozandends.blogspot.com/2009/10/superhero-comics-as-novel-of-ideas.html" rel="nofollow">“benign psycho”</a> interpretation is that it‘s too final. I think it’s more interesting to leave the possibility up in the air and see Bruce/Batman struggle with it. <br /><br />Where’s the line between being prepared for any contingency and being paranoid? Is preparing to take out all your best friends for the sake of everyone else on Earth make you more humane or less? If you can act friendly and cheerful toward 99% of your neighbors, why be so brusque to your nearest and dearest? <br /><br />The Batman stories never provide a final or definite answer to such questions. (Except, I suppose, for Earth-Two Batman.) And I doubt most fans want final answers. Part of the character’s post-1980 appeal is the danger he represents, and how (so far) he always pulls himself back from the worst. Batman not only has to fight to preserve Gotham City and/or the world, but he also has to preserve his value system and himself.<br /><br />As for Deathwing, sooner or later I’ll polish my thoughts about how both Dick Grayson and Tim Drake have been haunted by images of themselves grown up as <i>evil</i>. In Tim’s case, the figure of fear is the Batman of “Titans of Tomorrow.” Both Robin characters <a href="http://ozandends.blogspot.com/2009/10/reason-for-robin-9.html" rel="nofollow">represent aspects of growing up</a>, so among their biggest fears is growing up <i>wrong</i>.J. L. Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15405157000473731801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-59176525355374659852010-05-04T19:52:03.604-05:002010-05-04T19:52:03.604-05:00Dick was more often controlled than more corrupted...Dick was more often controlled than more corrupted, since a helpless Robin under the villains sway makes a more effective threat to Batman than an evil Robin per se (It'd also be terribly difficult to look MENACING in the pixie boot costume). Burt Ward managed to be an evil-Robin a couple of times in the 60's series though...<br /><br />In the comics Dick was under the influence of Brother Blood for a long time, as Robin and Nightwing, but again, not really in an evil capacity, more a standard mind-control scenario on two occasions. He managed to free himself the first time when Blood ordered him to execute the Titans, but the second time took ALL the Titans to free him and a similarly affected Raven.<br /><br />Straying slight at a tangent, I confess I've never found the Batman is evil/borderline psychotic to be interesting, because I've never remotely considered for a moment that he was. If anything Batman is probably the most terrifyingly sane person in history, he's sane past the point of sanity. He doesn't even allow himself the harmless little illusions and deceptions that ordinary people allow themselves.<br /><br />I can't recall any evil Nightwing stories offhand, though there's always Deathwing if you want to reopen that can of continuity worms...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-37645589374334578242010-05-04T16:40:40.084-05:002010-05-04T16:40:40.084-05:00I think the strength of the “Is Batman evil?” stor...I think the strength of the “Is Batman evil?” storylines (when done right) is that there’s a strong case to be made for his actions, as that fanfiction story does. <i>JLA: Tower of Babel</i> lets him explain his reasons, too. <br /><br />Those tales eventually come down to whether Bruce’s mission hampers his ability to maintain normal relationships, or whether normal relationships would hamper his mission. And that question is fundamental to Batman’s character, its danger and appeal. <br /><br />I’ve kept my eyes open for stories in which Dick Grayson’s mind is taken over and he becomes <i>evil</i>. There are some, of course, but there seem to be far fewer of them than there are for Batman or Superman. That’s still just an impression since I haven’t done a full survey and run the numbers.<br /><br />If that pattern holds up, I suspect it partly reflects how the mind-control gambit was a staple of Silver-Age stories, when Robin was clearly the weakest link on the <i>World’s Finest</i> team. Why, given a choice, would any villain want to control <i>him?</i> <br /><br />Wasn’t it more exciting to imagine mighty Superman or crafty Batman under mind control than little Robin? “Oh, no, the Boy Wonder’s gone evil! What can we do?” “Well, you could use your superstrength to break his bare legs.” “Yeah, or <i>you</i> could just sit on him.” <br /><br />But the pattern persists even after Dick became Nightwing. Nowadays, DC heroes trust Dick Grayson so much that he’d be extremely dangerous under mind control. But has anybody at DC written that story? Would anyone dare? (Well, would the company dare to print it?)J. L. Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15405157000473731801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28103455.post-72106663397084718582010-05-04T14:48:16.024-05:002010-05-04T14:48:16.024-05:00There was a good fanfic I read set just after the ...There was a good fanfic I read set just after the Tower of Babel story, where Dick berates Clark for not realising that the reasoning for Bruce having the takedown protocols was sound, given the number of mind control stories they've all been through. When Clark challenges Dick by saying "Do you think he has a file on you?", Dick's surprising, but appropriate response is "I hope he does, because if for whatever reason I'm hurting or killing people, some part of me buried inside would want to know that there was someone out there who would know how to stop me, and would, no matter how much it hurt them to."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com